A Conversation with Jo Frost

0:00 · Speaker 1 Joe, you are very, very welcome to Glen Abbey. Thank you so much for staying on for the extra day and for coming this morning and sitting down with me and having a conversation with me. There was, as the sort of social media you might have seen, there was another name on this this morning. It was meant to be myself and Joe and Peter Linus as well. Some of you know Peter through his EA work through being a local of course up in port stewart and so on um but unfortunately peter had to send me his apologies late last week uh just because this is a very significant morning in the life of causeway coast vineyard today and he thought that i think that that week was going to be next week it turned out to be this one and he really is the chair of the board there had to be around for that service so he sends his apologies through us uh to you and he has promised me that he will come back at some point in the new year and we'll we'll have some conversation with him at some point in 2025 and we look forward to that so we're not missing out on that we're just getting more of you two uh which which is lovely and we filled the time rightly at first service to be honest with you we'll do the best that we can in the time that we have available you don't need to worry about the clock at the back i'll keep an eye on that okay and make sure that we sort of we stick to time as best as we can first of all before just maybe obviously a lot of the ladies from yesterday now I know you, but a lot of the men don't. So why don't you introduce yourself to us, just about your work, your family, where you're from, all of those sorts of things, just the normal.

1:30 · Speaker 2 So the first thing that always has to be said is I'm really sorry anyone who's expecting Supernanny. I am not her. I apologize. I used to be the most famous Jo Wells on Google, but now I am not the most famous Jo Frost.

1:44 · Speaker 1 There's only a certain age group we get that one. I know,

1:47 · Speaker 2 I know. But I think she's, she was great. But me and the naughty stuff are big fans. Anyway, I am Joe Frost. I'm Director of Communications and Engagement at the Evangelical Alliance and co-lead with Peter, who stood me up today for the Being Human project. I have two girls, Eloise and Tilly. They are 12 and 10. I have one husband, Andy.

2:13 · Speaker 2 He runs a mission agency called Share Jesus International. so we are fully immersed in the church scene. We live in southwest London near Wimbledon where the tennis happens, and life is pretty good.

2:28 · Speaker 1 Brilliant. And it's not him that's in the naughty step, is it more the kids?

2:32 · Speaker 2 Well, he has his moments.

2:33 · Speaker 1 Okay, fair. Okay, right. Let me ask you a question just for a little bit of insight into you, your personality, that sort of idea. I'll ask one of these. And I mentioned a question that we asked in our Young Adult's Home group a few weeks ago, which was if you had to get rid of all the apps on your phone, apart from three, which three would you keep?

2:52 · Speaker 2 Okay. So when I thought about this question, I was very, very certain which one I would delete first, and that is WhatsApp. I hate it. It pings all the time. I have about 300 unread messages in it. I just, ugh, awful. It's terrible. But I would keep podcasts, my podcast app.

3:15 · Speaker 2 I would keep my Kindle, And the correct answer, I would keep my Bible app. Yes.

3:22 · Speaker 1 Okay. And you said at first service, the mistake that I made was to get rid of all the photos of my children. Yes. But you just rely on your husband. Husband. Yeah. Yeah.

3:30 · Speaker 2 He takes more photos than I do. So there you go. Very good. I live in the moment. I like to be present. He lives through a screen.

3:36 · Speaker 1 You say podcasts. So it might be a recommendation of any outside of... I threw that on you.

3:41 · Speaker 2 Yeah, you did. Oh, I have so many podcasts. I'm a big Bible Project fan. So Tim Mackey and the Bible Project, I love their stuff. I'm a news junkie. So I listen to pretty much every political and news podcast going, whether that's news agents, newscasts, electoral dysfunction, the intelligence with the economists, the FT... Yeah, I'll stop now.

4:06 · Speaker 1 Right, oh yeah, please do. That's fine. Okay, you've got a few there if you're interested in that side of things. Right, tell us then, you mentioned being human. We've stolen your branding as well for our slides and everything. this morning haven't we? Done such a good job. Johnny Fleck's a bit of a genius when it comes to everything.

4:21 · Speaker 1 But tell us then about the Being Human project. Tell us how that came about. What was the spark that sort of lit the flame of that and what it's all about really.

4:31 · Speaker 2 Love it. So it actually came about in Northern Ireland. So you guys, thank you very much. You're inspired. I was with Peter in the Belfast office of the EA and we were having a conversation about all the different conversations that we were having with churches and with individuals and with charities from a various different starting point. So whether it was some of the hot topic conversations that we feel like we're always being dragged into, beginning and end of life, LGBT, AI, the climate crisis, all of these sort of crises. And then someone would say, oh, we need a theology on. And we would have to build up who we understood ourselves to be out of scripture based on the issue that was presenting.

5:15 · Speaker 2 or from a missional perspective, whether or not we actually had a good answer, not just a right answer, when people were asking about why we have the faith that we do, why we have the confidence and the reason for the beliefs that we have. Is the good news good news for everybody, no matter what their starting point is? Did Jesus mean it when he said he was offering us life in all its fullness? And so for all of that, we were like, we have to have a better understanding of the God story, of who God is and who he is asking his people to be. What does it mean to be human? What does it mean to be made in the image of God? So as we were wrestling through that question, we were like, we need to explore this. We need to share this and we need to teach this a bit better.

6:02 · Speaker 2 So we thought we were going to do a one day conference. We've now been running the Being Human Project for five years. It started as a podcast because when you have an interesting conversation to the two of you, you think, oh, we should make this a podcast. We're really interesting. So we did. And it's been really fun. So that's been running for five seasons. But then we had to write a book and then we had to do a small group resource.

6:26 · Speaker 2 And now we've got a whole project and a team and we're out and about. But all is based on this idea. What does it mean to be human? Our society, our friends, our neighbors are all asking different variants of this question. And as Christians, we have a unique and beautiful offer of what it means to be made in the image of God and to live in Christ. And so let's share what it means to be human to the world around us.

6:54 · Speaker 1 And just to say that I personally have benefited from the project for probably the last two, three years, I think I discovered it. Listen to the podcast, first of all, while I was walking the dog. That's how a lot of things begin. And really enjoyed those. Really enjoyed some of the ones you've done with guests over the years. I think back to the Justin Brayerley one, the Will Vander Hart one. Love that. Natalie Williams.

7:17 · Speaker 1 Those are ones that really struck me. And then I brought that to others here. So we as a church have benefited from it as well. We ran your small group course in the foyer here on Tuesday mornings at 7 a.m. And that was a way to connect young adults with older adults in the church. And it was such an encouragement to see that happen around tables with this material from people aged 17 to people aged, I wouldn't like to necessarily say, but certainly well into their 70s, which around the same table and engaging around this. And like I said, at first service, week one, loads of people. Week two, a couple less.

7:55 · Speaker 1 I don't think that was the material, more the 7 a.m., if I'm being honest. That's a high bar. But it was brilliant to be able to do that for a number of weeks and have that have that material. And this is probably a good time to say as well that we as Glen Abbey off the back of using that material decided that the time was right for us now to to actually join Evangelical Alliance as a church. So we have done that just in the last few months. So we are now, Glen Abbey is now a fully signed up member of the EA. Thank you. And I should also then probably give you the opportunity to talk about the other options for membership as well.

8:28 · Speaker 1 and just, again, more just what EA is all about and why you would be considering membership as an individual.

8:35 · Speaker 2 Thank you. Well, thank you, first of all, for joining. Yeah, the Evangelical Alliance, we've been going since 1846, so we're quite an old, well-established organisation with the largest and oldest unity evangelical movement in the UK and arguably around the world. But we are a membership organisation, so we unite churches like Glen Abbey charities, and individuals, because we recognize that it is together, it is in unity that we make Jesus known, that there is something beautiful, but there's also something prophetic and powerful when the body of Christ comes together to proclaim Jesus in our places and spaces. We exist to do two things. We want to help equip the church to share Jesus, to make him known. So we do research like Talking Jesus. We've got a new one out coming out called Finding Jesus.

9:29 · Speaker 2 We'll talk a little bit about that more. Being Human, all of these projects are made possible because of our members. And they're all designed to equip the saints to share God's good news. But we also elevate the concerns and the issues that matter the most to the church. We are a representative body. So we're not a think tank. We're not an institution. We carry the voice of the evangelical community into places of power and influence.

9:57 · Speaker 2 So whether that's the media or whether that's government in Stormont, in Holyrood, in Cardiff and in Westminster, we are constantly telling people who are shaping legislation and making decisions and policy, this is what the church is doing and this is what matters. So whether that's RSE being brought into the education space for our young people, What do relationships and sex education need to look like that honours the humanity and the dignity of all people? What does a sexual ethic that is biblically based, how does that get explored in our spaces? So we've done a lot of work around that. A few years ago, Ofsted thought it might be a good idea to set the curriculum for our young people in Sunday schools and in church on Sundays. We didn't think it was a particularly good idea to let Ofsted disciple our young people. So we took that concern to the government and that idea got dropped quite quickly. And it's because we are our members.

10:55 · Speaker 2 And to be blunt, the door gets wider the more of us that it is walking through. We're currently at about 25,000 members across the UK and we're on a drive to get to 50,000 by 2033. It's not a magic number, it's not a holy, it's not any significant, but it is about the same size as the third biggest political party in the UK, the Lib Dems. And it basically says we are a significant force in the UK cultural and societal conversations. We want to be in a position where government are phoning us, not the other way around, where we actually get to say the church has something to contribute to our society's questions and conversations. We are active. We were key workers in COVID. We matter to our spaces and our communities.

11:42 · Speaker 2 We're constantly sharing Jesus. And we should be a part of the conversation around our policies and our legislation and the laws of this land. So it is an invitation to you guys to stand with us, to help us grow our membership so that we can represent the church to the UK. Now, no pressure, service two, second service. But service one wiped me out. So they didn't, they were like locusts. They swarmed in, signed up, so noted, you guys. For as little as £3 a month, you can sign up to become a member of the EA.

12:19 · Speaker 2 It's a two for the price of one, so if you have a partner, a spouse, tick the couples box. It costs you no extra money, but we will get two voices. If you are without your partner today, it's always better to ask for forgiveness than permission, so just sign them up anyway. That would be great. And you've got two choices. There is a welcome box that I cannot give you. And in it, there are a number of different resources. There's the Speak Up resource.

12:48 · Speaker 2 There is the Being Human book. But there is also my most precious possession in the world, my trolley coin. In an increasingly cashless society, this little thing gets me out of a lot of problems in Tesco's and in Lidl. And it's got three dots in it. It allows me to pray. It allows me to pray that the gospel would be made known, that the concerns of the church would be heard and that we would be united so that the world may know about Jesus. But I cannot give you a box today. So you can sign up and we will post one out or you can sign up and I can give you a book.

13:26 · Speaker 2 So the Being Human book. So you can walk straight out with a book or you can sign up and we will send a box out for you in the next couple of days. But do not let the absence of a welcome pack put you off. I like a little bit of healthy competition. Second service, you're going to be the first service, even though they were not generous and did not leave you a box behind. But that's not what we're talking about. So let's go.

13:48 · Speaker 1 Although if it was me, I would be waiting for the box. Because you need the trolley coin. Trolley coin is literally the greatest invention. It's genius. Since Tesco changed back to having pound coins, like I was saying at first service, I was lost for about two or three months and having to go to the help desk every time and asking, could I borrow a pound? So I have now got one on my key ring. So that's that is a change of completely. So you may want to you might want to wait for that.

14:10 · Speaker 1 No, that is not what we are here to talk about. So let's turn to what it is we are here to talk about. And the key thing that what I want to do today really with our conversation with Joe, just so you understand what we're trying to get to here, is to connect up the Being Human Project and all of the stuff to do with that. Back with what we talked about a number of weeks ago about building gospel bridges and how this this as a tool, I suppose, might might be one little thread in the in what we do and actually being able to have gospel conversations, being able to have deep and meaningful conversations that lead, that build those gospel bridges that lead to us being able to talk about Jesus, that lead to us being able to talk about our faith in a very real and normal and relevant way. So that's that's the goal. You remember back hopefully to me chatting about that a number of weeks ago about my conversation with with Mark Jones that day as well about us being our call to be disciples who are disciple makers, Matthew 28, our call to be Christ's ambassadors, 2 Corinthians 5, and that idea that with all of that, our call to preach Christ as well from 2 Corinthians, but in all of that, reminding ourselves that it is not us who shines light into hearts, it is God himself who does that. But yeah, we are brought into partnership with him to be part of that. So that's what we're really wanting to think about.

15:36 · Speaker 1 And a reminder to you, and just articulated to Joe as well, what our core value around us is, so that we remind ourselves what it is we're called to do. This is what we say in that. We say we desire to communicate the hope of the gospel to our families, friends, neighbours, and colleagues. And we want to equip and support every member to give the reason for the hope that they have in Jesus with those in their own sphere of influence. And that's really what we're talking about today is this and our conversation as being an encouragement to you, as being an inspiration to you in a little small way in terms of what you are doing and are calling to actually be those people. So before then, I ask you about the lens specifically, Joe. I suppose it would be good because we've been talking about this a lot, both here in our Sunday services, but also in our small groups as well. Just even to get your perspective from the work that you do with the EA, from the conversations that you're part of, from those projects that you mentioned, like Talking Jesus and Finding Jesus, from your discussions with your husband at home, who is obviously involved in all of this and his Sharing Jesus work that he does.

16:41 · Speaker 1 What is your sense, I suppose, of the landscape for evangelism at the minute? We've talked quite a bit here about, certainly amongst young people, our sense of people being more open to conversations than they were a number of years ago. And our need to actually be bold in that opportunity, I suppose. And I wonder whether you could just speak into any of that from your experience. Do you have any stories that sort of connect with that and so on?

17:10 · Speaker 2 I definitely think there's an openness that's really interesting at the moment. I was having a conversation at the beginning of the year with my colleague Phil Knox, and we were asking each other, is it possible to be in revival and not know it? And we were wondering, and we thought, A, yes, it probably is possible to be in revival and not know it as a church, and B, maybe, maybe we might be. Because what we are seeing is little pockets of life come up. Every time we come to a church, we're seeing churches growing or just hints of there's more baptisms this year than last year. There were more people walking in asking about faith. There's more people open to being prayed for. These little stories.

17:54 · Speaker 2 But we seem to have in our culture this idea that the gospel work is hard, that the land is hard, that people are closed off and that we shouldn't really talk about it. And actually, it seems more like it's our mindset that is hard rather than people's hard hearts. There's so much openness. So Talking Jesus is some research that we've done every five years, just talking about how open people are to conversations. And in 2015, we found that after a conversation about Jesus with a Christian friend, one in five people would be open to having more information about who Jesus is and the gospel. That number is now one in three. So there is an increased openness to people coming to faith. Finding Jesus is some new research that we're just still conducting at the moment, but we've got our sort of first blush of information coming through.

18:47 · Speaker 2 We wanted to find 100 stories of people who had come to faith as adults, so over the age of 18 in the last five years. And we just really wanted to know, how did it happen? How did you come to faith? We needed 100. we got 300 stories, so three times as many as we were looking for. And one of the interesting things is that we found, it seemed to find that there is more people are coming to faith on their own. So actually at that moment, commitment, it tends to be on their own, in their bedroom or out for a walk. It's between them and Jesus.

19:23 · Speaker 2 But relationship and the church bookends it. So it could be a course that got them to that stage or it could be a relationship really quickly afterwards. But actually that moment of decision is quite a solitary one, but community around it is really good. So just saying, why don't you go home and read the Bible tonight? Why don't you go and pray? Why don't you go and ask God if he's real? Actually, those little promptings are us bearing loads of fruit. We're seeing the Bible as being a really key part.

19:51 · Speaker 2 People just literally picking up the Bible for the first time and encountering truth and life in that space. And we're seeing encounters of God. So spiritual encounters and experience of God is also a fundamental part. So just having the confidence to pray for somebody. Can I pray for you? Can I pray for healing? Can I pray for a word of knowledge? Can I pray for peace in this moment?

20:14 · Speaker 2 Those are really significant moments to encourage people to find Jesus.

20:18 · Speaker 1 And that Talking Jesus research is on your website. Finding Jesus will take a while to actually be up there.

20:24 · Speaker 2 Finding Jesus, 4th of June, 2024. but we're gossiping about it already and Talking Jesus is A, available on the eauk.org website or talkingjesus.org website.

20:35 · Speaker 1 So summing up all you've said, the answer is yes, just more openness and we should be encouraged to actually have conversations.

20:42 · Speaker 2 Who would have thought the gospel works?

20:43 · Speaker 1 Yes, okay, so let's bouncing off of that then and then looking at what is behind us on the screen here which is your being human lens and you're also a fellow contact lens wearer, I remember hearing that in one of podcast she did and lenses and I talk about them a lot on that whenever I teach and about ways to look at things so the key thing I want to do with this is just work our way around the wheel and think through so from a personal experience yeah I want to have meaningful conversations I want to have conversations that get to a place where I can talk about faith and talk about Jesus but I feel like it's very hard to get there sometimes it's hard to get beyond the the just the normal stuff. And I was wondering whether actually having this in place and thinking through, right, how can I have a conversation that somehow talks about these things, significance and connection and presence and participation. Can those things get me there, if that makes sense? So that's what I want to have a chat about really is in your own experience, I think is so important, and telling stories where you can as to how this works. How might having this even as a little framework in our mind and as we're talking to people you know how could I have a conversation about x y or z and how might that lead me towards having conversations about my faith how could this work is really what I'm keen to ask so let's work our way we got through three well we got through two and a half at first service let's see whether we can take about three or four minutes of each of these and let's see if we can get around off four and be even more successful this time let's see how we get on right so let's start with significance and talk to me about that.

22:23 · Speaker 1 So the big thing here, if people have read the book, then you'll understand this. If you haven't, I encourage you to do it. It's really what you're doing is you're holding up the secular stories around things like significance, for example, and the stories that people are being told about that from our culture. And then you're holding up the God story and basically saying, this one's far better than the first. That's really what it's about. Very, very simply,

22:46 · Speaker 2 yes.

22:47 · Speaker 1 Okay. So I'll let you talk. Go for it. No, no,

22:49 · Speaker 2 it's great. Yeah. Okay. So let's start in significance. So the whole point here is trying to find common ground and hear some of the conversations that we're already having. So Talking Jesus asked people, what are your big life questions that you are asking? And we gave ideas like your typical kind of, is God real? Did Jesus live?

23:12 · Speaker 2 Is the Bible trustworthy? What happens when I die? What about suffering? All of those sort of things. And the most common response to what life questions are you asking was none of the above. So we often spend our time thinking that in order to do mission and evangelism, in order to share the gospel, we've got to have really good answers to those sort of questions. But they're not actually the questions that our friends, our neighbors, and our family are asking or what they're exploring. So significance starts around questions about value, about worth and about dignity.

23:46 · Speaker 2 Am I important? Do I matter? Does somebody else matter more? How am I seen? How am I judged? So, so much of this taps right into the heart of so many of the conversations that we're having. Whether we're having it with our young people, we were hearing about the social media stuff and all these ideas. my daughter hates me because I won't let her go on Snapchat.

24:15 · Speaker 2 And I don't care. I'm right. And she's like, why won't you let me go on Snapchat? And I said, because the filters tell you that this is what you're supposed to look like. And your brain's not very clever. So it thinks that it's a mirror. And you put these filters on. And then all of a sudden, when you actually see what you actually look like, you don't look right.

24:35 · Speaker 2 You look bad. Your value and your worth is dictated to. and she's like okay you're weird and then her mate was on snapchat the next day and she said oh why don't you turn the fake the filter off and her 10 year old friend turned around said no i hate my face and she comes running into my room and she goes mummy mummy i heard it that her dignity her value her worth and her identity was so wrapped up in how she was seen and how she allowed other people to see her, there was this total shift and distortion around the value and the worth that she had. Instead, our story, our gospel story says, it's not about how you project yourself in the world. It's not about how you're seen. It's not about how other people value. It is everything to do with the value and the dignity and the worth that you've been given and gifted by the creator who loves you and knows you.

25:29 · Speaker 2 Our significance is because we signify the one whose image that we made. So it's a totally different conversation. We get to talk about how Jesus values us and gives us significant, not because we've earned it, not because we project it, but because it is given by the one who loves us.

25:47 · Speaker 1 That's such a strong point of connection. Just reflecting, and we've obviously been in a series in Ephesians for the last number of weeks, and with a lot of the younger adults that I've been talking to. And, you know, the big thing that struck them. And I was intrigued by how it struck, yes, it struck everybody, but it seemed to resonate with them even more. That stuff in Ephesians 1 about our value being and the fact that God thought of us before the creation of the world. And that just hit them so hard and stuck with them. I'm interested just because of what you're talking about there with significance and how all that, how all that matches up. And even, yes, this is where my significance is found and the pressure that that takes off.

26:37 · Speaker 1 But also then this is where the person beside me's significance is found too. And it's that lack of need to perform and to perform, you know, is so important. And such, I think, such an amazing thing to be able to communicate to people if they get it, you know. but it's so, yeah, yeah. So, okay, so that's significance. We're doing well. Let's move on to connection and talk to us about connection. And again, with that in mind, how can this lead to, you know, really good conversations with other people?

27:07 · Speaker 2 Beautiful. Okay, so to be human is to be connected. We matter to each other. That's another universal understanding. This is the place where we explore relationships, our idea of justice, what happens when relationships go wrong, and peace, what are we building for, hungering after and seeking after. So connection, the cultural storylines around connection are often around this kind of project me idea. So all of my relationships, my pursuit of justice and my pursuit of inner peace all comes from my needs and my expression. So biggest song of 2023 was Miley Cyrus's I Can Buy Myself Flowers.

27:49 · Speaker 2 Thank you very much. I Can Love Me Better Than You Can. So this whole idea that you do you, I'm being true to myself. So what it means is that self-expression becomes this moral obligation. Where it's all about me, again, same daughter, bless her, pray for me. Her birthday sash was, it's all about me. And I'm like, do you not know what I do for a living? I critique that sentence every day.

28:20 · Speaker 2 What are you wearing? But this massive, this idea that actually no one else is going to have my back. Other relationships, other things, people can harm me, people can hurt me, people can let me down. If everybody is on a Project Me worldview, then I can't trust anybody to want the best for me. The only person that I can trust to want the best for me is myself. So we become a really fearful set of relationships and connections. Everything is about serving my needs and meeting what I want in life. And everything else is either this is serving me or it's not serving me and I've got to get rid of it.

29:10 · Speaker 2 But the God stories are completely different. It turns that whole idea on its head. Because our relationship with God says that he is so completely generous to us, we do not need to worry about other people's lack of generosity. Our needs, our desires, our relationships, everything finds its fulfillment and satisfaction in the one who made us and loves us and calls us his own. So perfect love gets to cast out all fear. We get to love others. We get to care for others. We get to pursue justice for others and honour the mercy of God in our relationships.

29:54 · Speaker 2 Peace isn't just about inner peace. It's about a collective. God's kingdom coming on earth. It's a totally different way of pursuing life. And it says the Project Me burden is not one that you have to carry because Jesus carries it for us.

30:13 · Speaker 1 Yeah, thank you. There's such a strong point of connection when you think about people's desire for genuine, authentic relationships that are not transactional, but are sacrificial. And how that is given to us in Christ, and then the opportunity in Christ is given to us as well.

30:35 · Speaker 2 It's the irony that we see in terms of relationships, that everybody's hungry for a relationship, and yet more people are defining themselves as lonely than ever before. That isolation that comes at the cost when it's all about me means that everybody else is in some way distant than other.

30:53 · Speaker 1 Let's move on then. Presence then, chat to us about that for a couple of minutes as well. You're doing well here, and great stories to represent as well.

31:00 · Speaker 2 Speeding through, yeah, yeah. Poor first service. So presence, we are looking at this idea that we are physical beings. We have a body, and that is a significant thing that Jesus was incarnate. He took on flesh, and he moved into a place, into a neighborhood. We are in a body, in a place, and for a season. So my body matters. It's not something that I can ignore.

31:27 · Speaker 2 It's not something I can abuse. It's not something I can form and shape however I choose. So this is often a place where you might say we might explore some of the transgender conversations that are bubbling up for our young people and for ourselves. I am now the right side of 40. So presence conversations around perimenopause and what happens with my sense of significance and where my world exists. All of that starts to bubble up. It's a delight. But it's a conversation that I'm always having with my girlfriends, with the other mums, with other dads.

32:02 · Speaker 2 Loads of people are having conversations about what happens to my body, what is happening to my sense of place, and what is happening in our culture. So culture starts to really form and shape who we are and who we understand ourselves to be. One little story, a friend of mine, we were spending all evening together. We were having a lovely chat. It was a lovely time. Everyone was chatting, blah, blah, blah. And then she drove me home and she said right at the end of the night, I've just had a diagnosis of breast cancer. And in that moment, I was reeling because her body was failing her.

32:44 · Speaker 2 I was present next to her and I was like what is my gospel moment in this space? How on earth do I bring Jesus into this conversation? And she knows I'm a Christian, she's got a Catholic background and I said can I pray for you? And she's like yeah sure. I was like no no can I pray for you now? And she shifted in a chair and she looked a bit uncomfortable and she said uh yeah I guess so. So she pulled in the car, stops on the side of the road. I take her hand and I pray for God's peace to come.

33:20 · Speaker 2 I pray for God's presence to be immediate to her. And as I say, amen, she looks at me and she goes, I've never known peace like the peace I just felt while you were praying. It felt like God was actually in the car with us. The conversations that have come off the back of that prayer at the start of her diagnosis is she's wrestling with what her body is doing with her faith and in all of those spaces what does the gospel offer her she is now searching after that encounter of God in that moment because she wants to experience the peace and the presence of a God that comes near this was a tiny little moment in a in a place in a car with my friend to say God is near you and he sees you. And I'm really interested to see how he takes her on a journey while she's going through this in her life.

34:16 · Speaker 1 So an example of, yeah, taking the opportunity in the fear as well, in the moment of that. Brilliant. Thank you. And then finally then, we're doing well. A couple of minutes on participation and then we actually, we get round the wheel.

34:29 · Speaker 2 Oh, nice. So participation is a really interesting one for me. Everyone thought we would start here when we were talking about what does it mean to be human. People assumed that the first two words would be meaning and purpose. But purpose for me was a really problematic word because purpose presumes a sort of usefulness narrative. My mum is fascinating when it comes to what it means to be human. She wants to donate her body to science so that even in her death she is useful. She has a really strong usefulness bent and it's fascinating to me.

35:09 · Speaker 2 But we had Sarah Williams on the podcast a few years ago talking about her unborn daughter who during her pregnancy realized that she wasn't going to survive birth and how her and her husband navigated the impact of this daughter's life on her, even though she never had a life outside of the womb. What was her purpose in that moment? And was her humanity somehow diminished or less significant because she didn't have a purpose to live up for? No, she participated. She made a difference in the lives of her parents and in the lives of those who encountered her story. Our lives aren't limited to the purpose that we have. I don't know if any of you saw Adam Peaty, the Olympic swimmer, and tracked some of his journey over the last couple of years. But he won all these Olympic swimming medals in Tokyo and then came back and sank to the bottom of the training pool one day and couldn't get up because he didn't know what his life was without the purpose of pursuing gold.

36:24 · Speaker 2 And he had a complete crisis. And so a friend, the chaplain of the Olympic team took him to church and he encountered in that space peace that said, actually, there has to be a gratitude beyond my purpose. There has to be a meaning beyond the things that I serve. And he found in that moment a faith worth living and believing in and a life worth pursuing because his significance, his participation was beyond the power and the purpose that he had in his life. These are really counter-cultural stories that we encounter. We're seeing this at the moment with the assisted dying bill that's coming through with some of the abortion conversations. Can you live a fruitful and flourishing life if your purpose isn't obvious? The God story says you matter not because of what you do, but because of who you are.

37:20 · Speaker 2 But you are invited to participate in the coming of God's kingdom. It is God who calls people to himself. It is God who has chosen. It is not our purpose to convert or to convince. But we do get to participate as citizens of the coming of the kingdom. And it is the most amazing gift to recognize that actually when you over elevate some of these ideas around purpose, around power or around freedom and instead say, no, I am going to offer who I am in this moment. Lord, use me as you will or not because I am simply your servant and I'm here to follow you. That's such a different story and one that comes with such gorgeous grace attached to it.

38:10 · Speaker 2 when you feel like you're just on the rat race of always doing more, always achieving more, always trying harder, always trying to gain control? What does it mean to rest in the presence and submit your power and purpose to God?

38:24 · Speaker 1 Thank you so much. You did really well there. Just, it is, and I know we can only touch on these topics a little bit this morning, but I would encourage you to go away and think through some of this stuff a little bit more. listen to the podcasts or read the book or look at the small group course or maybe get together. I know of a couple of people who actually just got together themselves and did the small group course themselves during the week, not organized in any shape or form. And just as we continue to pray for opportunities and pray for God to show us those bridges that we can make and how can we, I can't remember where I heard this recently, just how can we get sort of 1% better at what we're doing in terms of having these conversations, in terms of having the boldness, not about turning everything upside down, but just having this front and centre of our thinking, having this front and centre of our praying as well. So thank you. That has been so helpful in terms of just thinking some of those things through.

39:24 · Speaker 1 You are going back to London this afternoon. So before I pray, how can we pray for you, Jo, as well?

39:31 · Speaker 2 Thank you. Pray that Storm Ashley doesn't cancel my flight. That would be really great. Thank you very much. We're also, in the Being Human Project, we're exploring how to search, serve our young adults in a kind of missional space. How do we use this as an evangelistic tool, as a bridge into some of these conversations, but specifically around some of the practices. How do we live a countercultural life and encourage people who are open to exploring faith where they are and then lead them closer to an understanding of who Jesus is and who they're invited to be. So we're developing that at the moment.

40:12 · Speaker 2 So if you could pray for that, that would be amazing.

40:14 · Speaker 1 I'll do that in a moment. Is there anything else, just as we close, you would want to finish with at all?

40:23 · Speaker 2 Oh, just know what a gift it is to be Christ's ambassadors of reconciliation. This presence piece for me in the lens is really interesting at the moment. You are planted in a place, in a season, connected to people. God has positioned you for a reason. Each and every one of you has relationships, has neighbors, families, friends, colleagues, strangers that you're going to pass on the street. And you get to introduce them to the hope that you have. It doesn't have to be complicated. It doesn't have to be packed full of Bible verses.

41:02 · Speaker 2 It doesn't have to be weird or scary. You just simply get to say, I have seen something beautiful. And I would like to share what I have with you. The reconciliation of God to his people is something that we get to participate in. And it is beautiful. Every single time that God has drawn somebody that I have connected with back to himself, I never think, oh my goodness, I did that. I always think, oh my goodness, I got to see that happen. Why deny yourself the opportunity to see God move?

41:35 · Speaker 2 It's amazing. So the more you pray, the more you chat, the more you just share your life, you get to be ambassadors holding out the word of life and shining like a star amongst a crooked generation that is desperate to know a God who loves them and sees them and calls them his own. So just go, build those bridges and be ambassadors.

41:58 · Speaker 1 There's a good place to stop. Let's pray together. And then the choir and stuff can come back out. Father, that's our prayer. We pray for, we pray that we might be witnesses to more of what you're doing. We pray that we might get to see how you're shining light into new hearts. And we might experience the joy of that as you bless us in that way, as you bless this church in that way. And so we ask now that by your spirit, you would be guiding us and leading us and giving us the wisdom that we need in the conversations that we have.

42:39 · Speaker 1 You'd be putting those people on our hearts. You'd be encouraging us to equip ourselves to be that 1% better in those conversations while at the same time trusting totally on you to do your work and recognizing the limitations of who we are and what we can achieve in our own strength. So Father, we want to see more of this happen. We want to see new people in this church family who are new to the gospel, who are new disciples and who we have a headache with because we don't know what to do with them yet. so we pray for more of that we thank you for Jo and just how she's encouraged us today and we pray for her and her continuing work in the EA the stuff she's talked about there for using being human in an evangelistic way with young adults we thank you in advance for the fruit that there's going to be coming from projects like that so continue to bless her may she get home safely to her to her family Father just thank you for all that you're doing we are so blessed we have all of your blessings and the spiritual blessings in the heavenly realm are already ours help us to understand and grasp that more in Jesus name amen Amen.